“Those who would give up liberties for security, deserves neither liberty or security.” – Benjamin Franklin

From my interpretation, you're saying that if they give you $4500 for your car (which they won't, no matter what KBB says) and you give them $13500 cash, you'll be burning gas in a new car.

So that's, what, $18,000 OTD for a car with MSRP of $21000?

Who's gonna pay for tax, title, lic, doc?

How in the world do you expect a dealership to eat more than 5K on the sale of a new car?

And exactly who would that price be fair for?

There's only one person coming out ahead in that scenario, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out who.

So why do you think the dealership should lose money to sell you a car?

What have you done to warrant a discount?

Patronizing their place of business? They've got tons of customers.

Buying a Rav4? Look around, there's plenty out there.

If you go into the dealership and make a ridiculous request you'll get treated like a boob. Seriously. Especially at a Toyota dealership. They've not got the time nor the inclination to work with a customer who will deny them the chance to make a fair profit.

Do some research on Edmunds.com. Find out what the invoice price is, any rebates (Toyota isn't keen on discounts), and what edmunds.com refers to as the "what others are paying"

Then head to the dealership and make an offer.

I don't know how you expect to get a 21K car for 18K otd. The markup in new vehicles is virtually nil. It really is. if you don't believe me, look it up on edmunds.com. You'll see that they're isn't much profit.

If you want a new car, and you want to be treated fairly and professionally, and you want a Toyota, make a REASONABLE offer.

otherwise, prepare for a rough experience at the dealership

caveat emptor….

Oh, and another thing. If you're going to make an unreasonable request, don't tell them you're paying cash. At least let them know that they can set up the financing for you. that way, they'll be able to make some kind of money from the lender who'll pay them a flat fee for sending your business their way.

Cash means nothing to a dealer. Don't expect a discount b/c you can pay cash for it. They'll get their money from you or the bank.

I'm kind of wondering how you think they — to quote from you — "can do what they want."

Just because the NYSE del-isted them doesn't mean they can do what they want. The SEC will still be looking for those financials. As long as they are a publicly traded company, they have to follow the SEC rules.

And where on earth are you coming up with "secret investors?" Quite honestly, I don't know a thing about this company but you've managed to invent a whole conspiracy theory here with zero evidence.

Sneaky Sneaky who is behind this?????? What on earth are you talking about?

Ahhh. I get it. You are against the war and here we have a truck manufacturer that is selling trucks to the Marines so you've invented a conspiracy theory to support your position.

By the way, as near as I can tell, Navistar hasn't issued an earnings report since 2005 so they're a lot farther behind then their 4 Q earnings. They look like a takeover candidate to me and I never heard of them until today. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.

From my interpretation, you're saying that if they give you $4500 for your car (which they won't, no matter what KBB says) and you give them $13500 cash, you'll be burning gas in a new car.

So that's, what, $18,000 OTD for a car with MSRP of $21000?

Who's gonna pay for tax, title, lic, doc?

How in the world do you expect a dealership to eat more than 5K on the sale of a new car?

And exactly who would that price be fair for?

There's only one person coming out ahead in that scenario, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out who.

So why do you think the dealership should lose money to sell you a car?

What have you done to warrant a discount?

Patronizing their place of business? They've got tons of customers.

Buying a Rav4? Look around, there's plenty out there.

If you go into the dealership and make a ridiculous request you'll get treated like a boob. Seriously. Especially at a Toyota dealership. They've not got the time nor the inclination to work with a customer who will deny them the chance to make a fair profit.

Do some research on Edmunds.com. Find out what the invoice price is, any rebates (Toyota isn't keen on discounts), and what edmunds.com refers to as the "what others are paying"

Then head to the dealership and make an offer.

I don't know how you expect to get a 21K car for 18K otd. The markup in new vehicles is virtually nil. It really is. if you don't believe me, look it up on edmunds.com. You'll see that they're isn't much profit.

If you want a new car, and you want to be treated fairly and professionally, and you want a Toyota, make a REASONABLE offer.

otherwise, prepare for a rough experience at the dealership

caveat emptor….

Oh, and another thing. If you're going to make an unreasonable request, don't tell them you're paying cash. At least let them know that they can set up the financing for you. that way, they'll be able to make some kind of money from the lender who'll pay them a flat fee for sending your business their way.

Cash means nothing to a dealer. Don't expect a discount b/c you can pay cash for it. They'll get their money from you or the bank.

We spent what, 500? 600? years used as war land, sold and held captive by foreign countries.

We value our freedom very much.

Gold is a common comparison in the Bible. One such comparison is to the souls of men. I believe the passage reads something like :"They are more precious than gold."

Then again, another comparison that is used in the Bible is that of comparing a man to a sparrow.
Again, I believe this is the quote: "He has His eyes upon the Sparrow, and you are worth much more than they."

There is also this matter of sin, if you believe our christian "spiel", God is holy as well as loving. So you can only get God working in your life in a major way, if you put faith in Christ, and get your sins forgiven. That puts you into the "Kingdom of God." Then you can experience God's presence and action in your life. There's then a "fight of faith" as you get to trust God more and more, and when you have this faith, God can do good things in your life. But all this takes time to grow, and is not a cakewalk.
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He doesn't hate you, but because of His holiness there is wrath as well as love involved. The wrath goes when you put faith in Jesus. That's our shtick, and it appears true in the experience of christians. I would say that is true in my life, although I've had times when I've strayed from the way, but He is ever-ready to welcome the stray back. You can experience God's love in your life, it can indeed be a wonderful thing, although life always presents many tough challenges, I find.